DID JOE FRAZIER RIDE THE GRAVY TRAIN?

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The lyrics of a song by Pink Floyd may have summed up the whole situation. “Have a cigar, you’re gonna go far. That’s the name of the game boy…They call it ridin’ the gravy train “.

After Joe Frazier defeated Muhammad Ali in their March 8, 1971 classic, in my eyes he was never the same. He had future moments, the win over Quarry, the “Thrilla in Manila “but for all intents and purposes, Joe left his soul in that Madison Square Garden ring. I have followed boxing for close to forty years. In that time I have seen so many game warriors. I’ve
seen men die in the ring or become disabled or suffer post career dementia. For all the horrible things I’ve seen one fight will always stand out for me. Frazier-Ali was the Fight of the Century. Please have no doubt about it. In that fight I have never seen a boxer with such a will to win then Joe Frazier had that night. He was NOT going to be denied. Ali could have had a
tire iron and a billy club in the ring that night and he still would have lost. That night Joe Frazier could have held his own with any heavyweight who ever lived!

What happened after that? That’s easy…Joe was the “Man “. He had finally shut up the “Louisville Lip “. Remember though that Joe took a terrible physical beating in that fight. Also all the emotional stress leading up to that bout took a serious toll on Joe. He needed a rest. He
needed an easy fight. He got one. Enter Terry Daniels. In a phrase that Bobby Czyz would coin, he was “bright, white and polite “. Well that was Terry. He was an articulate young man who could fight a little bit but against Frazier he was totally over matched. He was stopped in four. Next enter the “Council Bluffs Butcher “, Ron Stander. So many more worthy besides Ali were passed over but Ronny was considered a more serious challenge then Daniels.

For two rounds, Frazier-Stander was a competitive bout. As Frazier would say later, “Ronny came to fight “. Give him that but by the third round Joe was chopping him up. It was over by round five another relatively easy defense for Joe.

Did the “gravy train” lead to his demise eight months later against George Foreman? Look at photos of Joe in the March 8th bout. Then look at photos of him against Buster Mathis, Oscar Bonavena and Jimmy Ellis. He was a fighting machine. Then you see a somewhat flabby Frazier in the ring with this fearsome looking fellow named Foreman. It was a “massacre”. George bounced Joe around like a rubber ball. Yes I know styles make fights and Joe was made for George.

Still I’ll always wonder if George could have beaten the Frazier of March 8th, 1971.

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Jim is a member of the Boxing Writers Association of America (BWAA) and is also a member of the International Boxing Research Organization (IBRO), which was once directed by Hall Of Famer Ralph Citro, Boxing notables Hank Kaplan and Harold Lederman are among IBRO's members. Jim is on the Publicity Committee for the American Association for the Improvement of Boxing (AAIB) that was co-founded by Steve Acunto and the late Rocky Marciano. He is a member of the Ohio State Former Boxers and Associates and the Trumbull County of Ohio Legends Of Leather, past President the late Sal Marino.Jim is also a former member of the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR).

8 COMMENTS

  1. Don’t understand what fights Russ was watching. Ali took no where near the beating from Norton that he took from Frazier. The Norton-Ali fights were more chess matches that brutal. Ali couldn’t figure out hows to deal with Norton’s cross arm defense and Norton’s jab gave Ali trouble. It could be debated that either won all three fights but they were not the brutal type fights of ALi-Frazier 1 and 3. Neither were the first Spinks and the Holmes fight comparable. Spinks punched no where near as hard as Frazier and Ali was washed up by then anyway as he was against Holmes. Ali’s condition today was largely the results of the Frazier fights (especially Manila because he was older). Spinks, Holmes, Shavers, etc., beat up the shell that was left after Manila and just acelerated the process. Somehow Ali revived himself just enough to win the Thriller in Manila (actually the trainers won the fight for him- Frazier was arguing with Futch not to stop the fight but he refused to let him out for the last round and Ali was arguing with Dundee wanting to have the gloves cut off and quit and Dundee ignored him). Ali collasped after the fight was stopped – he may not have lasted the 15th round.
    Still the courage he showed in coming back in rounds 12-14 came with the price of selling his soul.

  2. Neither Ali or Frazier would ever be the same after the first fight. Frazier developed blood pressure problems which as I understand it prevented him from training as diligently as he did for the first fight. Ali would move on to take terrible beatings from Norton, Spinks and Holmes all of them the first time around. In the case of Norton and Spinks (not even Frazier gave Ali as bad a beating as Spinks did the first time) he hoodwinked the judges into believing that dancing for 12 or 15 rounds in the rematch was the same as winning. Unfortunately, the virtual vegetable Ali remembers none of this today.

  3. Foreman himself said many times that had he fought the Joe Frazier of March 8, 1971 it would not have been anything like the Jan. 1973 fight. After watching Ali-Frazier I Foreman said that whoever got him next would be lucky because Frazier had been processed with beating Ali and with that now done his desire would never be the same.

  4. Joe Frazier on March the 8th 1971 would of beaten every champion, past or present. He took left right combonations in the 2nd round that would put anybody out.

    And that left hook had a mind of it’s own.

    Why I say this is after the fight in Frazier’s dressing room Yank Durham popped open a champaign (sp) bottle and Joe ask Yank like a little boy “can I have a cup Yank.”

    That means Joe was raised on spring water and heavy training making him a weapon.

    After the fight, Joe found Wine, Woman and song.

    Never being the same.

    But, on that night.

  5. did you know that don king once tried getting tyson to fight foreman?when big george came back there was alot of money on the table to fight him and tyson said no way the guys a f**king animal,you love him so much you fight him,thing is cus damato showed tyson the film of frazier v foreman and told a young tyson that there was no swarming type of fighter in the world who could beat foreman,tyson fought similar to frazier and was roughly the same size as him,i wonder how tyson v frazier would come about,i say tyson but joe had so much heart he could make tyson quit

  6. joe frazier beat the heavyweight who is generally regarded as the greatest not only by his own words but by the history of boxing,i happen to know willie the worm monroe was listening in muhammed ali corner and he heard ali say to angelo dundee that he was not going back out there,that frazier was crazy,he then seen eddie futch putting a hand on joe fraziers shoulder saying thats enough son,nobody will ever forget what you done here tonight,in which futch then siganalled the referee harold valan over and told him,valan said to futch thats good eddie,joe you were a great champion,through the roar of the crowd was willie the worm monroe shouting,no,he felt ali would not have came out for the next round,imagine if you will if ali had quit,and frazier not been retired,would joe have been regarded the greatest and not ali,would they have fought again,would the press unfairly have called ali a quitter,just a bit of food for thought my friends,tell me your views

  7. as a child i always remained shocked at his loss to foreman.as an adult, after reviewing his fights,he was definitely not the same fighter after ali #1.considering his health before and after the fight,and fighting with decent vision out of only one eye,he should have listened to his handlers and family and retired.his body could no longer carry his will.i am also very happy to have met joe.hes a good man and was a true proud champion that did boxing good.i wish he would’ve fought lower against foreman and avoided his punches as he did vs. ali.i am still proud of my man joe,though.

  8. Great question because so much of Joe’s will to win that night was based on his burning desire to beat Ali the man. Would he have left as much in the ring against George that night in March? We will never know but we did get the fight of the century out of it.

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